Kim Gentes

I completely agree with you about inserting patriotic songs/elements into our worship services. It just feels weird.

I got 6/8. I let the first question confuse me (thinking the answer was more complicated than just "the constitution"). And I answered that we had 26 amendments.

If McCain and Kyle are still the Senators for Arizona, then I was correct on 7 of the 8, not even taking a guess at the number of amendments.

I got 6 of 8, though I did know 4 of the 5 items in the first amendment (forgot the right to petition government), but couldn't count it since I couldn't remember all five.
Mesa, Arizona

I got them all right. I think that in this "political season," people are more aware of these kinds of things. I am admittedly a "patriotism junkie." that involves knowing the Constitution and "guv'mint." But the question of whether or not to include patriotism in a worship service is interesting: It does not bother me when it happens. It seems that the prayer immediately before or after worship would be the appropriate place to ask God to bless our nation and our wisdom in selecting representativs to do our bidding. But, in a climate such as we are presently in, with the future of our nation clearly at stake in this all-important election, it is not surprising and should not be a problem when patriotism is mixed with worship: We must all be made aware of truths, and if it can get through to some during a worship service, I don't think the Lord will be bothered by it. This is the only nation ever founded and organized on His principles, after all. The current President does not believe that, and does not think it important enough to thoroughly analyze; he is not the President we need for the next four years.

I just have to say to Bill, that the US is NOT the only nation founded on biblical principals; Canada was as well. That being said, I believe that we should definitely pray for our nations, ask Gods wisdom and direction in electing representatives. The only problem I see is that I dont beleive partisan politics belong in the church at all.

GrwT post Kim. I have a few thoughts, and I am actually a Canadian. Our Canadian anthem actually has many verses (unknown to most people) that are full of rich theology. The one line that rings true forme in worship is "God keep our land glorious and free". So, our anthem is at least in part, a prayer. I can see that at church. Hard to believe we sing that with fervor at National hockey games!

Unlike Canadians, Americans seem to have a few songs that truly feel anthemic. The 'star spangled banner' is certainly all patriotism. 'America' is certainly full of worship themes.

For me, here is the test - and this is the perfect test, coming from a Canadian. If I came to your church on a patriotic Sunday, would I feel alienated? I've actually been to a mega church on July 4th, and I have to admit, we definitely felt a little awkward. The worship was great, but the message was pretty strong patriotism.

We all love our countries. We are thankful for so many things. But on a spiritual level, we live in a world without boarders. Any one of your services might just have a Canadian visitor lurking in the pews. So, maybe if you just plan with that in mind, it might keep your perspective in balance, and keep the focus on the Kingdom we all belong to.

I am grateful for your post. It has brought back to my mind this battle that we face every year on Memorial Day, 9/11, 4th of July...I am the Worship Service Programmer in our church so this is a huge struggle...my father served in 2 wars...WW2 and Korean. He sacrificed much. He loved his country and recognized the need to protect and serve. We were a very patriotic family. However great the sacrifice of all of these men and women through the years, and it has been great, nothing compares to the sacrifice of my Savior Jesus Christ who has rescued me from an eternal life separated from God to an eternal life in the presence of the Almighty. Should we pray for our country...of course. Should we recognize the people who have served...yes. Should our corporate worship services please men/women or God? well, of course it should honor, worship, exalt, and magnify the wondrous God who chose to do a mighty work of salvation on our behalf. Nothing I've written is profound, but the God I love, serve and hopefully honor is due His praise. I want to be a part of a God-centered worship service not a person-centered worship service. It is a great to say thank you to all people who serve...our country...in the mission field...in the nursery...in the Student ministries...our volunteers throughout the church...but it should never take over the value of lifting high our Savior during our corporate worship times.

I say all of this, as I thank my God for His freedom and as I pray for God to grant wisdom to our leaders and to me. May God transform each one of us into His likeness. And give me boldness to speak of His great salvation to my neighbors, family and friends.

I got six of eight. I have been a worship director for 25 years and there is not a single Memorial Day or Veterens Day that I don't deal with this issue. At our church, we honor America on around the July 4th holiday and we remember those who have sacrificed on our nation's behalf on Memorial Day weekend. We even show appreciation for those who serve in all five branches of the military. But I have come to the conclusion that while it is important to appreciate and celebrate America for all of its blessings and beauty it is not enough just to sing America's praises. It is imperative that we as worship leaders, pastors and teachers direct our people to the Provider of our freedom. As ones who have truly been set free through Christ we have a unique understanding of not only the blessings of freedom but also the cost. Therefore, while I have no problem with flag waving, saying the pledge of allegiance or singing the national anthem in a church service, I feel that it is my (our) responsibility to clearly point people to the Author of Liberty and make sure he is honored more than any system or document that man could ever devise or create. Kept in the right perspective, I believe it provides an opportunity for believers to worship and for seekers to be pointed to the cross.

I agree with singing patriotic songs - IF they have good theology and are not putting an earthly kingdom above God's Kingdom. It's God, then family country etc, not God and country equal. I served on the mission field for 9 years and realized that God and country sometimes clash. One litmus test for whether country has been elevated above God is when we ignore scripture and put country first. We must first ask what Jesus would do and then vote. As much as I love being an American and living in one of the best places on earth and times of history I must remember that earthly kingdoms will pass and should never be elevated above God. Many devout Christians obeyed Romans 13 during the Revolutionary War and remained loyal to the governing authorities (England), many left rather than join a revolution. If you say the American Revolution was Christian you may be Constantinian (mixing nationalism and religion, putting country first and using God/religion to serve country rather than the other way around). Would you obey God rather than man if country commanded you to do something Jesus would not do?

PS I got 5 of 8 right, getting most of #4 (good to review that one) and missing the more trivial #3 and #5.

As far a memorial day, I am personally offended when those that served in the military are honored, yet those who refused to serve out of obedience to Christ's command to love our enemies are ignored, or even persecuted.

I believe the interjection of freedom and patriotism in a worship service is absolutely appropriate if the honor and focus remains on God and what He has done. Is it necessary weekly? Probably not unless the Pastoral staff has prayerfully considered it and deem it appropriate for a season. That is there call. But on a weekend where we recognize the heritage that we have, or honor the sacrifices of those who gave their life, it is not only okay but I believe one could argue that we have a biblical responsibility. All through scripture we see where God told His people to make a monument so that we remember; to train up a child; teach the next generation. Our freedoms in this country are inextricably linked to our faith in an Eternal God. Our founding fathers believe that our rights begin and end with God and our country was established on these truths; i.e. The Declaration of Independence. No other country in the world as a document that compares. Because for the first time, a government began with recognizing that God is the beginning.Our rights and liberties come from Him. Our model for living free is that of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for us. We have the opportunity to live eternally free because of Jesus and His model was the blueprint for our country that affords us the opportunity to live free today thanks to men and women who have given their lives fighting and defending the freedom. We live in a society now that is trying it's best to rewrite the constitution, the history books and is in an all out war to try and separate the link between faith in God and the establishment of the United States. The day men and women of faith stop fighting and toe the line with liberal elites and say that God and country are separate, will be a sad day. Our Founding Fathers will have given everything for nothing. I pray that day never comes.

As for the quiz, I would have been 8 for 8, but couldn't remember "Right to Petition" in question 4. I got 4-5 on that one. Still not bad I'd say.

Rom 13:1,2 and 6
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants

The ordained authority at the founding of our country was the King of England - and we were refusing to pay taxes - that does not sound Biblical. The declaration claimes to be based on God, but not the Bible.

I got 6/8 on the test (I missed one of the 1st amendment items and missed the amendment count I said 26). With that said, i think some worship with a patriotic theme is ok when it's a holiday or we are reflecting on Gods blessing to our nation. I think when the focus becomes patriotism in church then, yes, there is a problem. However, if it is focused on God, I don't have a problem with the occasional thing. The context is very important in this case.

I'm with Paul on this...we glorify war and the military in this country and it has seeped into the church. Those who believe that pacifism is biblical are seen as either unpatriotic or worse, heretical. I am more than weary of this. When I was the Worship Pastor at my church in Tucson (for nearly 8 years), we never sang patriotic songs. Never. Our focus was on God alone. My pastor never brought politics or patriotism into the church, and I was very glad for that. I know I'm in the minority here, and that's OK... I'm one of the weird ones who feels the Pledge of Allegiance is idolatry...

Oh, I'm from the US (California)...and I got 6 of 8 correct.

I got 6 out of 8. Was thinking too specific on Number 1 and didn't get the right number of amendments

Oh and I'm from Ohio.

0/8. And here I bug American's about their lack of Canadian knowledge... (I'm Canadian, and proud of it :-)

that's "Americans" without the apostrophe. Yes, Canadians mostly can spell.

ok, so I had a little trouble posting...

A worthy question having received very few worthy responses. A key issue of Christian discipleship is the purification of our identity in Christ out from all natural (national) heritage and allegiances. Patriotism is natural pride in the flesh found in all the world's peoples, and is at the heart of all the world's wars and internal political disputes. It is the exalting of Adam, is totally antithetical to the New Testament, is what crucified the Lord and opposed Paul throughout his ministry (ie, Jewish Patriotism) and is what founded the "Holy Roman Empire" that burned its opponents and from which America's earliest settlers fled. It is what Philippians 3 was written to condemn. Sorry to be so bold and blunt here, but God is jealous of us and does not share any platform of adoration with "family and country." He alone is to be worshipped and exalted in our midst as His One chosen holy nation--the church. For any one interested, more detail can be found here: http://www.firstloveministry.com/disciple.htm.

I write this as a native American who is a dual Canadian citizen with more than 30 years of worship leading experience. And I got 6.5 out of 8 correct on the test. (Shame on me!)
Blessings to all the worshipping priesthood.

I do not care for patriotism in the service, nor do I include songs that deal with nationalistic themes. There are several reasons:
1. First, and foremost, I belong to the King of kings. I can pledge allegiance to the USA and pray for our leaders, but my heart, soul and ethic belong to Jesus.
2. The ethic of our government is self-interest. Like all nations, we have interests not friends. Our decisions are not based on biblical standards, but mostly (for good or bad) by economics.
3. There are many who hold to Jesus' call to non-violence. While I'm not a pacifist, I still want to honor those who hold such views.
4. Political agendas tend to be one sided in expression. Our political discussions have turned into polemical nightmares: pick your opponent, then demonize them . . . This is not a biblical model.
5. I am a veteran. My experience is that those who serve do so for the best of reasons. These men and women are willing to offer their lives for others. This is an ethic that can be honored in the community.

There are seasons to honor those who serve. I like reasons to bless people. However, Jesus is Lord over every nation. There is no nation that his grace is absent from. Therefore, we ask for his blessing on every tribe, tongue and flag.

I reside in Kentucky, but was raised in Pennsylvania, and have led worship in congregational services for 12 years. I have always struggled with singing patriotic songs during corporate worship, mainly because it seems to be a doorway to shift the corporate focus from God to country. In my experience, singing patrotic songs rarely puts God at the focus mainly because of the kind and degree of sentiments those songs tend to stir in the congregation. For those of you who can mainatin God as the focus, kudos to you! I love my country and I still weep when I watch movies or read books that show the great sacrifices others have made to obtain and to help us keep our beloved freedom. But as for me, I would like to keep all national anthems and patriotic songs out of the Sunday moring worship service and perhaps sing them at picnics and the like. But I am one who likes to turn the lyrics of "God bless America" to "America bless God", so consider the source.

And regarding the comments about submission to the ruling authority, that really is a totally unrelated topic for another day. It brings up the notion of just and unjust wars and all the baggage that brings with it.

Anchorage Alaska, and I got 6 out of 8 correct.

I got them all right. But then they are pretty current for me as my daughter is studying the Constitution in her history class adn the teacher is a liberal who I do not agree with on many issues. Because of this difference I teach my daughter the truth of the historical Constitution (as opposed to the "Living Constitution") so that she can bring this into the classroom debates.

As for Patriotism and Worship goes, many of our church hymns declare patriotism and worship for how much God has blessed this nation. For example "God Bless America" or "Battle Hymn of the Republic". These are also a goor opportunity to share how much the national view of our once great country has changed. It used to be common place for people to thank God for our many blessings. This has changed in today's society. Maybe its time to take a trip down memory lane in some of our churches by bringing these hymns back into our church services.

Just my opinion,
Pastor David L. Aune

It's so easy to load up the worship service with "junk" that doesn't involve worship (of God). Maybe patriotism is OK, but is it as good as worshiping God?

Now, honoring servicemen (and women) in the congregation goes beyond patriotism and is, I think, appropriate because it addresses the needs of the body. Maybe ignoring patriotism on July 4th would offend some because they have a "need" to acknowledge our past. That can surely be done without distracting too much from worship.

I got 6 of 8.

Memory lane? How many churches sang patriotic songs in the North and then sent their young people off to kill other Christians who had also sung patriotic songs in the South during the civil war where about a million "Christians" died. ? Ironically if we had NOT rebelled against our ordained authority, England, during the revolution slavery would have been outlawed in the 1830's when England outlawed it in all her colonies. We paid for the confusion of governmental authority that revolution produced with a civil war that pitted human state authority against human federal authority. We can use memorial day as a day to repent of resorting to violence instead of following Christ. We have rewritten history to make the American Revolution "Christian" when it was really humanist and deist and actually persecuted the more Biblical Christians who fled to England and Canada and elsewhere. I've read that after the Revolution less than 10% of Americans attended church.

Thanking God for this nation is a good thing. Even if other nationalities are present in the congregation, they will hear that God blesses nations as well as individuals. Thanksgiving is always an appropriate way to worship. If you are struggling with this issue, look at the songs that are chosen. Agreed - not all are appropriate. But those that give the glory and honor to God for his mercy and goodness to us as a nation are completely appropriate.
Fran
Worship leader

Oh, yeah...I got 6 our of the 8!

Got 6 of the 8. Even if our nation was the most "Christian" nation on the planet, founded by a group of totally Christian people who desired nothing other than God's will, to sing the praises of that nation in the context where the Church has gathered for the last two millenia to worship Christ alone is nothing other than idolatry. And the US doesn't even qualify by the first criteria anyway. If we are going to celebrate our nation, we must do it some other time and place than when we normally gather to worship the King of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Great question!!!
First I would encourage all to make sure we know the difference(s) between patriotism and nationalism. I didn't for a long time and I paid dearly for it within the context of my own inner dialogue and my ability to clearly share my thoughts with others.
Let me start out by sharing that I was invited to speak at a Christian Bible camp this past summer. When the flag raising ceremony happen that morning, the US flag went up first and on a higher pole than the “Christian flag”. Some ex-military guy gave his rendition of why we need to be “proud Americans”. WOW! I quietly gave thanks to God for the knee surgery and flat feet that kept this young Christian from having to participate in Viet Nam. My draft number was 40! And my ego, although very large at the time, was fragile and subject to the curse of nationalism and ego-driven patriotism.
Nationalism is doing far more harm to the Church than it is good. Why? Because Jesus did not come preaching a message of nationalism nor patriotism. He came preaching a new covenant, a message of a Kingdom not made by human hands. He came preaching a message of forgiveness and a message of how to live using non-carnal weapons, and by the power of the Word, not the sword; a message to "love others as I have loved you." Agape! Now, my friends, that takes tremendous faith and tremendous courage far beyond what a "conforming to the world" mind can grasp and/or appreciate. Only the renewing mind that has been transformed (metamorphed) can begin to conceive of what it means to pick up its own cross daily and follow after Christ at all cost. We are all one in Christ, we are no longer separated by nationality, or genders.....we who have the One in us are also one in Him. I can not allow my man-made government to cause me to hate nor harm anyone, anywhere, for any reason. There is a difference between protecting my family from harm and be a part of a preemptive strike against anyone. How could it be that Christians would end up killing one another in the name of any man-made kingdom? God forbid! Oh, it has happened many many times, but only by those who chose to do so. The reasons/excuses are many, but the shame of being labeled "non-patriotic" or “not spiritual enough” has sent many to war whose heart was not into it. Many young people sign up for the benefits that follow military service and find themselves in situations that then cause them to second doubt their choice to use the system as a means of self-improvement. To those wishing to serve this nation, I say, check out the Coast Guard, they operate to save lives, not take lives. I have invited many young people to consider assisting with the many battles that need to be waged here at home, like child and spousal abuse, or any other form of abuse that is overwhelming this nation.
I have nothing but compassion for those who think that the loin cloth of Jesus Christ was made of the stars and stripes. Let me just say we might want to 're-cognize' the slogan, "God Bless America" and reconsider something like "American, Bless God!"…..and pray for the people of the entire world!!
I never thought that eschatology (the study of end times) would means so much in the context of how we live our daily lives, but I would also like to invite serious seekers and learners to study the differences between Pre-Millennialism, Post-Millennialism, A-Millennialism and Preterism. I truly believe that Christian misunderstanding of eschatology is playing a huge role in this matter of patriotism and nationalism within the Church.
Be Blessed…….
Denny Irwin…….in Montana (-18 degrees……burrrr!)

For what it’s worth…….I forgot to say…….Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is my belief at this point in my studies that Zionism is at the root of nationalism in the Church.
Thank God for grace!!!
Denny

The one thing I think as a worship leader that can be confusing when planning a service, is to NOT play to people's emotions. That's performance, pure and simple. While striving to be excellent in musical skill and delivery, it does cross a line to TRY to evoke an emotion with a worship service. That really should be the job of the Holy Spirit.

Although I am patriotic, and I love the USA incredibly, I see the faults of both parties and I love other countries. Ultimately, we are not of this kingdom. We are part of another one! There's a Christian clothing company that has a NOTW logo that I see on shirts and stickers on cars and it's a good reminder to act other-worldly and not basely human.

So, when a patriotic song is injected in to a worship service, although it's nice, and even though I like them, it's got to be withheld for either another venue or at the end of the service, or some place where it's not tugging at the emotions. We can't comingle our worship and patriotic emotions, because worship doesn't belong being focused on a country or anything but God. Playing with emotions and music is manipulation and God wants to have the opportunity to mold a heart through conviction of the Holy Spirit. If we manipulate, however noble our aim, we lessen one of the main jobs of the Holy Spirit. Not surprising, but the pastor, worship leader, and anyone involved in the church service can easily sway it away from being focused on God and His Son and the work of His Spirit.

That being said, I think every country can have something to be proud of. My Canadian friends hear their news and have reason to fault the US, but I don't blame them for being happy for what they have. Same with my British or Chinese or Japanese or German friends. There are good in each country that people love. I'm not sure if it's true, but it seems it's a greater fervor in the US. I have even cried hearing incredibly patriotic songs, but it doesn't belong back to back with worship songs.

Ultimately in Romans it says "Let God be true, and every man a liar", so each system of man will fail, one by one, and at the end, when we hear the trumpet, there will be only one government that counts. Keeping my eyes on this is difficult at times, but it's necessary to focus on His kingdom, because everything else falls under His rule in one way or another until that final day, and then once that final day is here, EVERYTHING will fall under His rule.

Until then, God, please bless the USA to be a blessing to the nations.

Brian Goodwin, somewhere in California

Apparently my earliest relatives came here on the Mayflower. My decision to follow Christ was in my teens. No one else in my family has done that nor have I seen any evidence nor heard of relatives that have done that. Where my family missed it and how it happened through the centuries would be interesting to find out. The founding fathers of this country were definately believers in Jesus and feared God. I think Darwins origin of the species caused a shift in thinking. The 'Truth Project' that Focus on the Family puts out is a really good review in apologetics to help understand where and why we got to the point we are today. In most recent times bad theology and church abuse discourages others.Maybe patriotism is something that encourages unity and reminds us as a nation our roots,however if your not living what the founding fathers wrote or intended as most americans don't now your really not a patriot nor a christian. As a songwriter reintroducing old hyms and lryics that concur with scripture would be a powerful and helpful form of reaching many.

PS and I would add songs that can cross over to secular stations...

From Ruston, LA I got 6 of the 8. On memorial day weekend and the Sunday before July 4 we will have some patriotic-themed music and possibly the pledge to the American flag, Christian flag, and the Bible. However we always make the service have a "God and Country" feel by emphasizing how our country should always turn to God.

i've had several family members serve in the military--vietnam, gulf war, and a living grandpa who survived pearl harbor. we occasionally honor people for significant achievements or acts of service before the worship time starts or other appropriate times. why not honor those serving us in the military? frankly, i'm offended by people who don't think we should honor those serving our country. two freedoms: 1. the freedom to worship and live in a country protected by patriots, 2. and eternally more important, the freedom from Christ on the cross. with just a little eduction of our people (not that they need it), we can do some flag waving and honoring of those who have served our country without anyone thinking we are worshipping country over God. let's give people a little credit. i wouldn't sing the national anthem in a worship package with 'how great is our God' and 'mighty to save.' i don't know of anyone that would. we exalt nothing higher in our church except Christ.

I do think we should talk of government of all kinds from the pulpit. The Bibles speaks much to it. Jesus confronted the "political" authorities, be it civil government (Herodians) or the ecclesiastical government (Pharisees/Sadducee). The OT is full of authority resolves and the new Testament (Rom 13) sets the boundaries and responsibility of government, even civil. I would be careful over praising any nation itself, for even America has always been wrought with problems.We need to teach the truth about what God says and not place the focus on man--at least in the corporate service. That is my opinion.

Missed two! Can you believe I missed "freedom of religion"? And "We the people"... Good review for those of us who are natural born citizens. Regarding the place for patriotism in Christian worship, I am reminded of a Promise Keepers event (a popular gathering of male Christ-followers) where the speaker asked ALL veterans to stand. They all stood and we cheered. I found myself asking, "What does honoring veterans have to do with a gathering encouraging men to serve Jesus?" And when the speaker asked for "veterans" to stand, what about men -- Christians now -- who might have been foreign "veterans" of wars in their native Japan or Germany or North Vietnam - wars where America fought against those nations? It was at that moment that Promise Keepers seemed to define itself as an AMERICAN-oriented Christian group, and not exclusively JESUS-oriented. That kind of patriotic emphasis should not be a part of the universal worship of Jesus.